Paper Rad

When we planned for this interview, we half expected Paper Rad to give us animated .gifs as answers to our questions. And that would have been fine.

But what's better is what really happened.

Here we sit down with Jacob and Ben for a little chat before their Pop Rally performance and show at the MoMa.


Chief Magazine: You guys want to introduce yourselves?

Jacob: We… are… Paper…

Ben: …Rad. And… we… [laughs] Sorry. I’m Ben Jones.

Jacob: I’m Jacob [Ciocci]. We’re two-thirds of Paper Rad.

Cool. So where’s the third third?

Ben: She’s somewhere. I don’t know.

Jacob: Yeah.

Oh. All right.

Jacob: I mean, she’s here.
 
Ben: She’s at the Zach de la Rocha of the Rage Against the Machine TRL interview.

Gotcha. And how did you guys meet initially?

Ben: I was living in Boston doing very similar things, but just at a younger age and a bit more unorganized, and Jessica was also in town... Boston, Somerville, that kind of area. And I was doing lots of other stuff with friends too. There was a small community, pretty similar to what we’re doing now. And then I think Jacob moved there too, kind of in an unrelated post-college decision. And inevitably we just met each other. ’Cause back then, see, it was literally the same thing as we’re doing tonight. I think they actually met me out of a film screening. It wasn’t the MoMA, but the same type of thing: crazy animation, weird music kind of stuff, art shows...

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Jacob: Yeah.

Ben: Not really, I guess.

Jacob: Comics.

Ben: Comics, yeah.

Jacob: I mean, that was the thing I remember, was knowing Ben through just through seeing his comics around town, ‘cause he was publishing his own stuff, along with a bunch of other people in Boston. So yeah, we started making comics together. And then started making animations, and music, and later kind of started doing art shows stuff too.

So that seemed like the natural progression? Were you making comics before, as well, or…?

Jacob: Well, you mean me personally or the group?

You.

Jacob: I was into comics a little bit in early high school and then lost interest in it, and then got into it again, after college or in the middle of college, largely because of a lot of the Boston and Providence stuff that I was seeing through the mail. It was before the Internet, so pretty much through the mail. Then I started making stuff again, basically just because I was inspired by the stuff I’d seen. And then, yeah, a natural progression.

You started making comics together, and then one night while drawing comics it’s like, “Oh, let’s animate this?”

Jacob: It was way more disorganized, and at the same time... fluid, you know?  It was like, Ben was already making animations, and I think you probably were like, “We should make a website.” And then we were like, “Okay.” And then he was just like, “All right, well, I’m going to make an animation for the website.”

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                                                                                                                                                            _{^{Photo by Ed Zipco at MoMA in RichardSerra's Intersection II
                                                                                                                                                            © 2007 RichardSerra /Artists Rights Society (ARS), New York}}

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And then was this sort of when the term “Paper Rad” came about?

Ben: Yeah, ‘cause I was doing stuff under the name Paper Radio, which is super confusing. But then these other guys took Paper Radio and started Paper Rodeo. So we thought we’d just kind of continue on that path, and drop the “I” and the “O” from Paper Radio and be Paper Rad.

Jacob: Yeah.

Ben: I think Jacob was even more into comics than I was in high school. I think what we were rediscovering, for me—I think for all of us—it was a way to draw in a social setting. Because you could take your drawings and your art and stuff you’d usually do in a sketch club. Or, I don’t know what they did in the eighties and the seventies, but… they made zines. It was a way to share and contribute to a cultural environment of creativity. And so I think it was above and beyond that. And the thing is, a lot of the kids from Providence did like comics. They did like the X-Men and stuff like that. And that was influencing the way they were drawing and the way they were making their art as a complete package. They were making actual books that were awesome. I’m just covering the same territory.

What kind of comics were you guys into initially, when you were way young?

Jacob: I mean, I had one Transformers that I didn’t read, a comic. And then I think I had a Robert Crumb comic in high school. But I was really into the Life in Hell books.

Ben: I was into cartoons in the newspapers more than comics... Far Side.

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Jacob: Yeah, you were really into Far Side. That’s what I was going to say.

Obviously you were into Garfield and Bill the Cat, is that his name?

Ben: Bloom County.

Jacob: There’s this character that Ben made up when he was like, eight. How old were you?

Ben: Ten.

Jacob: It was like a weird derivative combination of, like, all the characters. And we still use that character in a lot of our work now. Touch-Dog, that’s his name. A crime-fighting dog.

Sure. Was that the name from when you were ten?

Ben: Yeah.

That’s pretty boss.

Jacob: Somehow this was all kind of relevant. It sounds kind of childish now, but this somehow got translated into the late nineties’ crazy music scene... luckily, I guess, ‘cause that’s what we were naturally doing to begin with.

Right.

Jacob: And that’s kind of what brought us all together.

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How did Jessica fit in? When did she join up? Was it the same time?

Jacob: She’s my sister, so...
I moved in with her, and she knew friends of Ben’s. And eventually we all three kind of met each other. We met at the same time at one of Ben’s screenings.

Oh, right.

Jacob: And it was kind of immediate. I’ve always wanted to make stuff with my friends... immediately we just started making things.  

Oh, that’s cool.

Jacob: Like the guy we’re doing the show with tonight, Cory, is an older friend of mine, and I used to make stuff with him in college. And then he moved to New York. And I moved to Boston, and met these guys, so…

Gotcha. What school did you guys go to?

Jacob: Me and Cory went to Oberlin, which is in Ohio. Ben went to MassArt. Jessica went to Wellesley.

Are you from the Midwest originally?

Jacob: I’m from…well, the south, kind of. Like North Carolina, and before that, Kentucky.

Okay. And are you from Massachusetts?

Ben: Yeah. I totally grew up in Massachusetts. Central Massachusetts.

And you both live in Boston today?

Ben: Jessica and I live in Providence and Jacob lives in Pittsburgh.

Jacob: Still moving around.

Ben: If it’s one thing, it’s East Coast.

Jacob: Yeah, East Coast.

Ben: It’s definitely an East Coast vibe.

How does that work when you’re collaborating or creating new work?
 
Ben: It makes it project-based, definitely. I think before, it was just a matter of going over to their house and just seeing what happened, whereas now it’s like filtering through a thousand projects, picking one and trying to do it... it’s different, and good. Down the road, it’s like we could all live in a dome. Yeah, it’s weird, because at the heart of this is collaboration... None of us thinks of this as a collaboration... It’s second-nature not to collaborate.

Jacob: I would agree with that, and I think that partly that probably has to do with the fact that I’m collaborating with my sister... It just kind of happens without thinking about it, you know? Like, I think everybody is kind of always throwing around these little jokes or ideas with their friends. And we just happen to act on, try to pursue some of them. A lot of the stuff that we do, sometimes people think it’s weird inside jokes between the three of us. And I think that’s true, but I don’t think that’s insignificant. I think that’s something that’s really powerful and important, because the jokes that you share oftentimes can resonate with a bigger audience.

Ben: I think we’re also naturally inclined not be comfortable pumping up our ego and stuff like that. It’s like, all these opportunities are how you have to make it in today’s art world and music scene. It can be pretty negative. You have to sell yourself, you have to sell your body. You have to totally sell out. But as a group you can kind of bend the rules and you can keep your anonymity a slight bit more if you try.

Jacob: The thing about anonymity is it’s really tricky. I think all of us agree that it’s not about remaining totally anonymous and kind of having this masked presence or whatever. But it’s through the name Paper Rad that a sort of confusion is created... we live in all these different towns, and the name itself is derivative of something else. In my opinion, it’s a productive confusion for our creativity, because it... stirs up people who might be wondering what it is, and it makes it harder for people to pin down what it is. And that kind of mystery is good.

Ben: We can work towards that crazy name or brand or reputation, as opposed to working towards like, your career or something. Whereas a graffiti dude can start off and be psyched, you know, bombing everywhere, and feel good about that. And he doesn’t have to think about combing his hair and being in a photo blog every day. It’s like he gets personal satisfaction through the things he’s doing as opposed to creating this ego.

And he can just focus on his shit.

Jacob: Yeah, totally.

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So, as a group, are there ever any arguments or disagreements as to which paths to take?

Jacob: Yeah, absolutely. All the time.

Ben: But that’s just like a society, almost.

Jacob: If we weren’t arguing, that might be a bad sign. I mean, we’re—me and my sister are collaborating, so there’s that kind of tension, but there’s just so many proximities that make it really a charged, creative relationship, and I think that’s mostly good. I think it’s really good.

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How does it usually work itself out? Is it democratic?

Jacob: That’s a really good question. I mean, there’s…

Ben: I feel like when it has to be democratic, it’s almost worse.

Jacob: Yeah. No, totally, no. I mean it’s like…

Ben: When it comes down to a vote I think it’s…

Jacob: There’s something weird about it. But at the same time, we’ve done that, and we move on. I mean, it’s not like we’re opposed to any kind of democratic process at all.

Ben: I’ve always thought it’s pretty much pointless to collaborate with someone who’s thinking the same way you are, because you’re not going to get anything new out of that. I mean, the history of amazing collaborations have always been two very different types of people.

Jacob: That’s definitely true. And then there are times where things just work out really naturally. That word “naturally” is kind of problematic or whatever. But, today is a classic example in that we’re preparing for this performance. And because of this deadline, and because of the breakneck speed at which these kinds of things have to happen, decisions are just made really, really quickly without consulting the other two members... which oftentimes works out really good. I mean, that kind of forced deadline where you’re not able to argue about it.

Ben: Because it’s like, immediate problem-solving, immediate creativity.

Jacob: Yeah. It’s equivalent to, like, thinking on your feet, which is what you have to continue to do as an artist.

So with that said, you have the three core members and then this sort of like, outer circle? I mean, people come and go?

Ben: When we first started doing this stuff, we never thought of the name Paper Rad as having any kind of distinct borders. It was just, again, like a brand that we wanted to pursue. As the three of us wanted to pursue it, other people wanted to pursue it too. And so then it was like… I don’t know. I feel like in a way, we collaborate with all these other people and, ultimately, they’re just as much a part of it, but that we kind of like try to take care of it. It’s our responsibility to take care of it, even though I feel like Cory or David, the guy that’s playing music tonight, all these other people who are directly in Paper Rad, in a way, it’s like our responsibility to just like, you know… it’s like owning a dog, basically. You know what I mean? We’re like, the caretakers of this dog but the dog is totally out of our control. I mean, we’re… I don’t know.

Jacob: Well, no, I mean, other people can walk the dog.

Ben: Everybody walks that dog a lot.

But it could run away.

Jacob: It definitely could run away

It could, you know, shit on the neighbor’s lawn, and then the neighbor would come to you.

Ben: Someone has to clean up the shit. And it’s usually me… It’s usually Jessica, Jacob, or me. That’s the metaphor.

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And then what happens when—correct me if I’m wrong, but, you guys just recently had a book come out?

Jacob: Yeah.

And then…the book before that…

Jacob: Mmmhmm.

Was that you guys as well, or…?

Ben: Oh, you might be thinking of this thing, this weird thing.

Jacob: The fake book.

Yeah.

Ben: Paper Rad has attached its name to two books so far, both through PictureBox Inc. The first one was called BJ and the Dogs. And then we did another one recently. But between the two books there were these crazy kids that put out a fake. They called it BJ and the Dogs Part 2.

Jacob: Yeah.

Ben: And we can’t figure… I mean, at first we were on tour and it was annoying because we just kind of felt left out of it or something.

Jacob: Yeah. We were like, overwhelmed and like, “What’s going on with this joke or whatever this is?”

Ben: Yeah. And it wasn’t even—it wasn’t totally funny. It could have been totally funny.
 
Jacob: I mean, we don’t know. We still don’t, like, understand.

Ben: I mean, I really like jokes, and I like pranks, and I like fucking with other people’s stuff. It just, it seemed… I mean, the book itself, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it.

No.

Jacob: Like, whoever did it is just... it’s just super sad.

Well, I mean, that’s my question. Like, I haven’t seen it. Is it—could it be mistaken as…?

Jacob: Yeah.

Ben: It definitely was. They were selling it to stores as us.

Ben: But that was your prank. You did it. You sold one book. Good job. But, otherwise, like, the dude or dudettes or dudes, just need some help. I mean, I’m not trying to be condescending. Like, I need help.

Jacob: Everybody needs help.

Ben: Everybody needs help, everybody needs friends. And hey man, I’m here for you if you want to call me.

Jacob: We still have no idea like, who or what.

They never contacted you directly?

Jacob: Like, it could be you guys, like, seriously. I’ve thought about that before [laughs]. Going back to the dog analogy, I was trying to think of what BJ and the Dogs II would be and I was thinking it might be like—

Ben: Someone else taking care of the dog and giving it, neutering or something.

Jacob: Yeah. Or replacing your dog with like, an evil—no, not evil, but like a… No. It’s like… like a mutant… like your dog grows a growth. It turns out to be like an other-dog. Like that dog is like a whole other dog or something.

Ben: Like a cat.

Jacob: Yeah, like a cat. All of a sudden you’re like, “Wait, I don’t even own a dog; I own a cat.” Anyways, I don’t know.

This one might be a little more difficult.

Jacob: Anyways, yeah. So that was pretty crazy.

Ben: And the thing is, I thought, “All right. This is going to happen every day,” you know? Bring it on. And then it was just that one thing. It was kind of disappointing. Every aspect was disappointing about that.

Did it make you feel like you had a nemesis for like a half second? Someone you could kind of fuck with back and forth?

Ben: Yeah. It could have. It could have. That would have been fun if it was like an actual—

Jacob: A rival gang…

Ben: If he had done a really good job, it would have been a nemesis. But the book sucks, so…

Is there a short section in the most recent book that says, like, “This is the real, authenticated…”?

Ben: No, but I thought about doing a comic where I read the book and I crinkle it up. I take my hands and roll it up kind of crinkled into like, a little point, and then find the guy and put it in his penis hole and pound it in with a hammer. That was going to be my response. But um, I decided not to put it in the book.

Take the high road.

Ben: Yeah. ‘Cause I realized, you know…

Yeah, okay.

Jacob: Yeah, I’m glad you did it, I just wish… I don’t know.

He’d done it better?

Jacob: Maybe.

Ben: Yeah, it’s like…

Jacob: Or worse.

Ben: Yeah, that’s always the classic thing when you don’t… when you don’t know what to think about art.  It’s either you want it to be worse or better because then you’d, like, be able to understand it better.

Get a concrete feeling.

Ben: But when it’s just like…

Jacob: Yeah. ‘Cause we don’t understand it.

Ben: It’s like totally gray, just like that painting on the wall, just like… you feel really gray about it… you just kind of… it sucks, actually.

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And I guess, now at the MoMA! I mean, certainly you didn’t dream of this when you were, you know, first starting to do animations. Or maybe you did?  Or is this even a big deal? Do you guys find this funny? Or do you find this to be the right place for your art, or is it a joke?

Jacob: This is stupid. I mean, to be honest, it’s not stupid in a negative way. It’s just, it’s kind of hard to understand. And I don’t think…I just know everybody’s out there, picturing a board room, and they had a big chart with every artist, and they were like, assigning values to them. And Paper Rad won this big contest of who got to play at the MoMA. But it’s just totally random. Again, it’s just about a social circle and being nice to people, and back-and-forth creativity.

Ben: Like I said, this is exactly how it started. They met me at a film show because I knew the guy who ran the place. And we knew someone here who was, like, booking new shows. So it’s so simple like that...I mean, it’s a pretty weird brand, the MoMA, I guess…but that’s fine. We play in basements, we can certainly stoop to this level.

Jacob: Yeah. I mean, I think our thing is…

[Security guard enters room where we're  conducting our interview.]

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Security Guard: You guys. Excuse me. Are you guys having a meeting?

Everyone: Yes.

Security Guard: Ya’ll are setting off my alarms. You can’t be here. This is, like, a restricted area.

Jacob: We were escorted here.

Kim brought us in here.

Ben: Kim from PopRally. See, this is what I mean, by the way. This shit should totally go in the interview.

Yeah, I’m sorry, we’re just…we’re doing an interview right now.

Security Guard: Well, okay. But nobody told me that you were going to be here. I can’t have you here.

This is totally going in the interview.

Ben: I’m glad this happened, it kind of sums up the weirdness. And I don’t mean it in a negative way towards the MoMA, I just mean that the situation is awesome and strange, and I think we should celebrate those kinds of situations. And thanks to everybody at Pop Rally.

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Website
www.paperrad.org


Photos
Ed Zipco
Adam Bezer












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                                                                                                                                                                 © 2007 RichardSerra /Artists Rights Society (ARS), New York}}

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